Point & Figure charts

[brujam]

I am trying to use P&F charts trading intraday futures on Eurex. Point & Figure charts appear to have different highs and lows than candle charts. Also they are configured as a function of time. In other words I can draw a 1minute P&F chart or a 5min P&F chart. With a box and reversal size of 0.01 I find the X & O are positioned between the price levels E:G
-----110.65
X
-----110.64
instead of

X----110.65
O--110.64

Does anyone else have this issue/problem?

[brujam]

And another thing! Since when is a Point & Figure chart configurable on a 1 or 5 or any minute/time basis? I thought the whole idea of P&F was that time was irrelevant. Price is the only consideration? Esignal, you are doing my head in!

[JayF]

brujam,

Could you provide a screenshot of what you are seeing? If you would like assistance on how to post a screenshot to these forums, please see this thread.

[JayF]

There are two schools of belief on Point & Figure charts. On one hand there's the belief that time should be taken out of the figure completely, and it's not until another X or O at the same price level is drawn that you move to the next column in the chart. The other school (what we use,) is the system that each time there is a reversal, a new column is provided.

We taken this other method into consideration for future enhancement of eSignal.

[brujam]

Here is a screen dump

[brujam]

Here is a candle chart of the same security at the same time showing a high price of 110.66 as opposed to 110.65 shown in the P&F chart.

[JayF]

Thanks for the screenshots. It certainly does look like an error, and I am able to duplicate this. I'll report this to our QA Team to investigate further. Either myself or another eSignal employee will get back to you as soon as we hear more.

[brujam]

If you look at the opening price for this security BL H4-DT at 07:00am on 23/12/03 you will see the candle chart has an opening price of 110.66 whereas a P&F chart has an opening price of 110.63?

[JayF]

The open of a candle is time based. Meaning the opening of candle will always be the first tick of that time period. With Point & Figure, the Open is the start of that Column. In this case the column, started from the day prior and continued through the open of the day until it reversed at 7:02am GMT (the next column.)

[brujam]

But neither the last column of the previous day or the first column of the current day show a trade at 110.66 on the P&F chart whereas it does show a trade at that level on the candle chart? The high of the last column of the previous day still only shows 110.63?

[JayF]

Very true. The high does look off. We are researching these discrepancies in further detail, and will post once we have further details.

[brujam]

Re: Reply to post 'Point & Figure charts'

There are two schools of belief on Point & Figure
> charts. On one hand there's the belief that time
> should be taken out of the figure completely, and
> it's not until another X or O at the same price
> level is drawn that you move to the next column in
> the chart. The other school (what we use,) is the
> system that each time there is a reversal, a new
> column is provided.

To be honest, I do not understand your answer. I
believe that time during the trading day is
irrelevant. I also believe that a new column is
required when and only when a reversal of the
specified number of ticks occurs. Although surely the
start of a new trading day would imply the start of a
new column, after which the the concept of time should
be irrelevant for the rest of the day and new columns
should appear when a reversal of the specified amount
has occurred. I think your programmers are trying to
build too much functionality into what should be a
simple chart designed primarily for intra-day trading.
--- [email protected] wrote:
> Hello brujam,There are two schools of belief on
Point & Figure
> charts. On one hand there's the belief that time
> should be taken out of the figure completely, and
> it's not until another X or O at the same price
> level is drawn that you move to the next column in
> the chart. The other school (what we use,) is the
> system that each time there is a reversal, a new
> column is provided.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

[brujam]

inaccurate P&F Charts

Esignal, can you explain this P&F chart. Looking at the chart the Bobl contract on Eurex BL H4-DT opened at 110.79 reached a high at 110.82, a low of 110.76 and closed at 110.80.
Now look at the snapshot window at the top of the picture. The market opened at 110.80, reached a high of 110.84, a low at 110.77 and a close at 110.81. I can understand why the close is different because this is based on a 5 min chart but everything in this chart is inaccurate and this can be verified by changing to a candle chart! What is going on???

For your info the P&F chart is set to 0.01 box size, 0.01 reversal factor, price source is close.

[fabrizio]

.I
believe that time during the trading day is
irrelevant

brujam

If I am allowed.
Jay is tryng to explain you that amid two different schools, esig choose one and will try to add the second perspective in future.
That is.

Beside that , the world is beautiful because is different: my first concern is Time, second is price , third is Volume.

Peter Steidelmayer ( the inventor of market profile) and Steven Hawkins ( his coworker and the person who realized the Liquidity data Bank project in CBOT and inventor of Capital Flow Software) they believe the reverse

WD GANN that " when time meet price...."

[Gavishti]

I use PNF charts quite a bit. Personally, I don't have an issue with the time display. There are issues with the correct calculation of the Xs and Os. Given that P&F is price based, this is a problem. However, it is one that I have learned to live with for now. The precision is not there, but the basic concept remains. If you use them for reference and use candles or bars for fine tuning the price you can make it work. eSignal has been told of these problems and say that they are working to resolve them.

Another problem that you may run across is that at some settings, PNF can be a real CPU hog. By adjusting the time interval to the box size this can be overcome. A small box size can work with a small time interval. As the box size increases you will need to increase the time interval. For example, on YM #F at a box size of 20 a time interval of 5 works much better than a time interval of 1. A box size of 1 will work okay with an interval of 1. You need to choose whether box size or update speed is more important.

PNF uses a ComputeOnClose approach. This means that even if the price changes enough to add Xs or Os it will not do so until the end of the time interval.

Hope this is of some help.