Discussion on Renko and PnF charts

[Seshadri]

For a company that is trumpeting "new" versions of its software every few months, I am amazed that the eSignal folks are continuing to flout their software's ability to do Point & Figure and Renko charts (I am sure that it is true for Kagi and Point Break charts also) when they don't work properly and have not worked properly from day one. They have not had the guts to acknowledge the problems and pull these charts from their software or fix them ASAP inspite of so many customer complaints. Is it not surprising that with the same eSignal data feed that Metastock software does these charts well!!

People like Alex are having to spend a lot of their time and effort to conjure up workarounds for this piece of ***. Shame on you eSignal.

Sesh

[fabrizio]

Shesadry

C,mon. Everyone can be upsett because "some tool" do not meet its expectation but using certain "descriptions" does not honour yourself and - IMHO- it is not deserved by ESIGNAL.

So as you can see tehere is a large number of people supporting a light flas speed development - Mr. Montenegro Esq. Included who is indipendent - AFAIK- but still one of the main PILLAR of the team.

I'm not part of any team , just a customer like you: just wait a little:they may have the solutions ready, but since a serious company do not want to act before they are bullet proof ( and nothing is ever bullet proof not even a level 3 kevlar bullet proof vest, I assure you [level 3 should hold m16, Ak 47, AK 70, 50 cal bullet ])

BTW in a marketing and R&D perspective, having a continuos production of Betas and Tested releases it is a major point of strenght, not of weakness. Means that they never stop the developing and fine tuning process........and what you see is maybe the tip of an iceberg......


Cordially

[Seshadri]

QUICK ACTION NEEDED

Fabrizio,

The reason I am upset is because if another software co (like Metastock for example) can work it out and produce Renko and P & F charts correctly using eSignal's own data feed what does it tell you about eSignal's engineers? On top of that one has to plunk down $1500 for the other software too.

Thinking constructively, I can suggest the following to eSignal:
1. Hire someone from Metastock who knows how to make these charts work; or
2. Get their engineers a copy of Steve Nison's book "Beyond Candlesticks" and Tom Dorsey's on "P & F Charting" and make them understand how it is supposed to work and fix it ASAP; or
3. Come out and acknowledge that these charts don't work and take them off their offering.

Sesh

[ACM]

Sesh

what does it tell you about eSignal's engineers?

Absolutely nothing other than what any one individual wants to read in it.
From a personal point of view it tells me that their priorities are simply focused on something else in this moment. Given that I don't use Renkos at all (in spite of the fact that I just did an efs for them) that suits me fine as my priorities too are in a different area.
I understand though that others may see things differently and I respect that. I don't use Market Profile either yet I don't complain that a lot of attention has been devoted to that. The time for my priorities will come too.
At the same time others need to respect the fact that the development process may not always satisfy everyone's needs at the same time.
Alex

[esskay]

I am neither blaming nor supporting anyone here. However, having switched from Tradestation, eSignal's P&F charts are of no use to anyone. In fact, I doubt we should even call it P&F as it does not follow any rule on which P&F charts are based. At best I can see that to be equivalent of an C grade university student's project.

I am currently without one of my critical trading tool - P&F chart.

However, to be fair with eSignal, Market Profile is the tool that is making me stick with them. Other than this, (leaving aside the drawbacks such as P&F, lack of options charting, etc) I do not see any major advantage over Tradestation.

I recommend, eSignal's developers to have a look at Tradestation's P&F charts. They are just fantastic.

I think, besides helping the trading community, eSignal should concentrate on this are just to be competitive in the market.

-esskay

[Seshadri]

Unethical Practices

Alex,

I do understand that everyone has their priorities. But what is inexcusable is for a company to actively promote something when they know fully well that it is not working. Even for their 7.4 version they are highlighting that they have P & F Tick charts when they know it is fundamentally flawed. So regardless of one's priorities one should not actively engage in unethical practices.

Sesh

[fabrizio]

Re: QUICK ACTION NEEDED

Shesadry

Esignal Engeniers: IMHO they are very good.

Make note of what follows:

* Esignal in less than one year has gone through ENORMOUS changement . I'm an ex CQG: I did not found the same advantage in CQG that I found in ESIG AGET.
DOES METASTOCK HAS THE FULLY VERTICAL (DATA FEED) and HORIZONTAL INTEGRATION ( ADVANCED GET % AND OTRHGER PLUS)?
LET'S SAY -MAYBE- THAT YOU are not interested in TJ advanced get . Ok you are not obliged to - beside the fact that IMHO you miss a big part of the joy.
But you are interest in MP? Tick Playback? News, All the adcvanced charting features? Costant Volume bars? Costant tick Bars? costant value bars?, EFS JAVA SCRIPT PROPRIETARY LANGUAGE? Gann, GANN &FIBO Time & Price, Fibo TIME, Spreads calculations? basket ? Integrated trading......

* maybe could sound bitter to you but in any Large scale Project YOU MUST PRIORITIZE: have 1001 the number of request fronm end users, you cannot accomplish all of them at the same time That's what we call in production "lead time ". So in R&D you have to start from the most popular issues (statistically) set specifics teams for each issue, have them work with certain time frame and deadlines, have at the same time other teams works on the other issues ( or better call them "platforms") with a slightly different Deadline or -who knows- maybe the same.

* they have - AFAIK- THE BEST CONSULTANT IN THE WORLD. And working elbow to elbow this enhance the stock of skills of each engenieers.
So suggest 'em that Nison is the best around maybe they 'll use him ok?They will not likely drop your note by default .
AAMOF:
If they have to set up MP they got Steidlemayer, who invented in the 1980, ; when tehy need to see something on tech. they got Mr. Pring (among the others); once Tom De mark studies there will be available they'll have HIM not a whatchmacallit writer ( anyhow good but NOT THAT GOOD) to advise on how to better compile the code on a TD Termination Count or a qualifier for TD TREND LINES or the "over talked" Sequential and Combo.
They need some not lagging ocillators? Theyr engeniers got:
Di napoli ( are you getting free it in metqstock?)
Jurik
Arps
........
So what else you desire from a company that in less tahn a year deliver you all this? Freshly Brewed Coffe and newspaper with just baked croissant at home by 6:30 Am too?

You maybe are right, but let me tell you taking from the wrong side.

I told - as a customer- wait a litlle and you 'll see.

(BTW I'm not the ESIGNAL attorney at all, I'm not completely satisfied with some stuff too, but I try to understand and I BELIEVE IN THIS COMPANY . Period)

Cordially

Originally posted by Seshadri
Fabrizio,

The reason I am upset is because if another software co (like Metastock for example) can work it out and produce Renko and P & F charts correctly using eSignal's own data feed what does it tell you about eSignal's engineers? On top of that one has to plunk down $1500 for the other software too.

Thinking constructively, I can suggest the following to eSignal:
1. Hire someone from Metastock who knows how to make these charts work; or
2. Get their engineers a copy of Steve Nison's book "Beyond Candlesticks" and Tom Dorsey's on "P & F Charting" and make them understand how it is supposed to work and fix it ASAP; or
3. Come out and acknowledge that these charts don't work and take them off their offering.

Sesh

[esskay]

Hi Fabrizio,

I think you should let the post speak for itself. All Sesh is telling is that if the feature is not working, it should not be offered as a service. Isn't that a fair expectation in any market place?

Moreover, everyone understands what are lead time & priorities in software development life cycle.

-esskay

[fabrizio]

Essakey

The post does speak for itself.
I believe that confrontation is the most important part of a professional.

Let's keep it always into the right track: in this sense some posts Do sèeak too much.
Listen, I do not believe that people in Esig play around with me. Or with others. On the other ahand I believe that calling piece of######## isn't the best manner to assert your rights.

I wrote my post before reading the Mr. Montenegro's and yours : my job since 26 years is change my range of product ( about 2.5 millions variables) every 3 month since there is 4 seasons in an year. And play my face and my company P&L and my workers 4 times a year every year . So let me tell you that once priority and innovation and Customer satisfaction are your main issue since 1/4 of century I'm fully entitled to (teach it , remaind it?)to someone who probably did not claerly understood what means PUT IT ON WORK.
If I'm here enjoining trading in the green and on the hills of the beautifull Turin is just because of that.

Besides that My ful, respect, as always, to Yours and others Ideas and position, with no intention whatsoevere of polemics at all.

I hope we can continue enjoy this thread as we did so far.

Cordially

[ACM]

esskay

I think you should let the post speak for itself

That is assuming Sesh is correct in what he says.
In my understanding and interpretation of the tool until prices close above or below a box in the selected time frame no boxes should be drawn. However, one could draw boxes as "projections" with the proviso that they are only "what if" scenarios up until the interval closes, no more no less.
Now that IMHO is somewhat different than saying it does not work and therefore it should not be offered.
Satis de hoc (at least for me)

Alex

[gspiker]

I don't use renko, or PnF charts, so I don't know if they are broken, somewhat broken, nor have I paid attention to when or if they will be (or need to be) fixed.

But I couldn't leave this one alone:

Moreover, everyone understands what are lead time & priorities in software development life cycle.

I wish this were true. But it isn't. Far from it. We have seen (what I assume to be) grown men and women trhow tantrums that they can't have what they want right now. I'm not saying that's what is happening here...all I'm saying is we have seen it in this, and other BB's.

What is more, anyone who has worked with a SW company in ANY field has undoubtably run into the user who has unreasonable demands and expectations....


G

[Doji3333]

Seeing the benefits of this...

Hello everyone....

I just wanted to add to this conversation something that maybe some of you have completely missed...

A thread like this will be a "top priority" at esignal (I'll make sure the programmers see this). This type of conversation is good for everyone - including eSignal.

If there are problems in the code, then they need to know of them and address them. I can tell you that the "team of SW Engineers" at esignal are working on new features as well as improving existing ones. The charting issues should be relatively easy to address and (even though this conversation COULD fall into a shouting match) this conversation is a good way to address them.

I'm pleased to see that some of the regulars are here to help address this issue and I think we need to get JayF, JaysonK or Mr. Gundersen to address these issues (if possible).

Remember, the identification of a problem is not a bad thing. The team at esignal has proven they are quick to respond to issues and make improvements (very fast in most cases). I think we just need to push this into the proper hands and the issue will be resolved.

These are just my thoughts..

B

[mattgundersen]

There is one key component missing here... Specifics. What SPECIFICALLY is broken, or not working as expected as compared to MetaStock, or your favorite flavor of trading software?

I have to ask this because we did use Steve Nison's candlestick books, and we have compared the Renko, PNF, 3PB, and Kagi charts against other packages.

We can keep comparing but what we really need to know is what specifically it is that isn't working as you expect it to.

You can tell an auto mechanic that your car isn't working. It's most likely not going to get the car running any sooner without further probing about the specifics...

[Doji3333]

Linus' Issue...

Linus,

Are you stating that RENKO charts are not updating in Real-time?

Renko charts are not "time specific". They should be updating when (and only when) a new price point is reached. (I'm watching a renko chart now in RT to test it).

So, your thread mentions that a "However a Renko with a 10 minute period does not display price action until the next 10 minutes" - is probably incorrect.

Renko is a "price based chart" not a "time based chart". If you'll notice, bars are formed by price action and are not based on a sequential time basis.

Ah... I think I see what you mean. The new RENKO bars do not form in RT. They WAIT for the "base time" to complete the bar (in my test case a 1 minute chart).

Even though the price breached the new (0.50 Renko level) well before the end of the bar, the renko chart did not draw the bar until the close of the bar-time (the 1 minute time basis).

I believe this is correct because the Renko charts are based on the closing price of a bar - and while the bar is still forming, the closing price is unknown.

Maybe the programmers can address this by creating "dynamic renko" charts where bars are added and removed as needed based on the tick-by-tick actions of the bar. The issue with this is that trading signals may appear and disappear on your renko chart because the action is not based on a closing price (finished bar).

Your thoughts??

B

[Seshadri]

Matt,

I am glad that this finally got someone's attention. Now the specifics... If you please look at some of the threads posted earlier in this group you can see problems with Renko charts. Alex came up with a way to indicate where the next box may come up based on the price action because eSignal does not update the Renko charts in real time. You see, the basic problem is that the Renko and P & F charts are by definition independant of time. For Renko charts a box is drawn whenever price goes up or down beyond the box size specified. In eSignal it does not do that. There is big lag before the chart is updated but it too late for trading purposes.

There is another thread regarding P & F charts (if you type in Point and Figure charts in search mode you will see it) which shows exactly the problem with them. It looks like the way the P & F charts are configured is fundamentally flawed because the X's and O's are not plotted correctly with price changes. The person who posted this issue has shown hand written charts and how it should reflect price movement and comapred it with eSignal's. Please take a look. Thanks for your response.

Sesh